Upgrading to brushless

[gavj8]

Hi all,
After converting my P51 to Lipo power (mystery 2400mah), i am still in search of more power and longer flight times. I also have a honeybee king 2 rc heli with a 3900kv esky brushless outrunner motor. I was wondering if the esky esc and brushless motor combo would do the job? I know i will have fitting issues. Does anyone have any other brushless motor/esc experiences with the P51?
Thanks

[gavj8]

Ok, done various searches on google and i think the answer to the esky brushless motor is a definite no. Dont fully understand the realms of brushless yet but i think the esky motor would put too much drain on the battery on probably fry the esc because of the high amperage?!?!? I think the best bet at the moment is to go for the brushless motor from the T28 trojan. Apparantly it drops right in and you can use the stock gearbox. Will search ebay for a motor with similar spec/dimensions (and a lot cheaper!!) as dont think the mrs would be too chuffed with £30 - £40!!
Although a bit battered and bruised, I have done a host of mods to frankie all helping with strength and power issues so will post pics soon:-

-Expanding foamed the nose cone
-Upgraded to LiPo
-Moved rx to battery compartment and turned cover 180 deg to avoid coming off on hard landings
-Removed top section of fuselage for new LiPo battery compartment (also correcting centre of gravity issues)

The majority led from hard landings and fed up with replacing costly parts (fuse and wings). All in all a great plane..... with a little work!!

[Radweld]

Hiya,

You cant fit the BL from the T28 into the P51 gearbox because the T28 uses an outrunner motor where the P51 uses an Inrunner.

Basically an In runner BL has the same basic design as the brushed motor as fitted stock, apart from the magnet is on the spindle and the armatures (windings) are on the outside. The armatures pull the magnet on the spindle and turn the motor.

In an Outrunner, the spindle has the armatures and the magnets are on the outside (like a brushed motor) but the inner spindle stays still and the outer can, containing the magnets rotates.

The benefit of Outrunners is that they dont need gearboxes, you attach the prop diretly to the motor body which spins in the air.

I hope I explained this ok.

You can fit the T28 motor but you would have to replace the gearbox on the P51 and make a firewall extension or motor mount to enable you to fit the outrunner motor.

If you want to fit a Brushless Inrunner motor then make sure you dont go over 2800kv (2800 revs per volt) If you do fit a quicker motor, it will put a higher drain on the ESC and the bats resulting in shorter flight times and possibly fried ESC and Bats (not good if using Lipo as these can catch fire of the Discharge Rating or C value is exceeded.)

[gavj8]

Thanks for the advice radweld. I got mixed up, i actually meant the typhoon and not the T28 (been thinking of buying a T28 so had it on the brain!). I believe this will drop right in with the stock gearbox and have read various articles that its an animal with this setup!

See this link (about half way down):

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_3007882/anchors_4120667/mpage_54/key_/anchor/tm.htm#4120667

Just a note on the outrunner motor though, my esky helis outrunner has the spindle fixed to the outside case. The inside core is connected to the fixed mount where it fixes to the heli frame. When the outside spins the spindle spins also.
Thanks

[afpe45]

gavj8.
YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT OUTRUNNERS, they are all the same ,
the spindle/prop and outside of can spins together, I think Radweld mean't armature not spindle. the spindle connects to the outer case instead of the armature.

using an outrunner makes a quieter engine noise as well.

if using outrunner just cut the spindle part off the gearbox to give a base for the new firewall then you have the original thrust angle, I used a scorpion S-3014-16. ( www.scorpion.com.hk ).

(got mine here http://www.bmkdesigns.net/Scorpion-c-26.html?gclid=CNCR0f_oxJMCFQbllAodnAHhCA )

afpe45

[afpe45]

by the way is your pinnion on the stock motor metal or plastic:D.

afpe45.

[gavj8]

afpe45,
Thanks for that. How does the scorpion perform in the P51? Do you have any pics of your gearbox setup? Do you use the stock prop?

I know there have been several discussions around metal pinions on other websites! Mine's metal. Bought it from Squadron Leader at Christmas.
Sorry about all the questions!
Cheers

[Radweld]

Hiya, I dont think you can use the typhoon motor either as the gearbox in the typhoon is an 8:1 ratio where the P51,Spit and FW190 use a 3:1 box. I think using the typhoon motor might overload it and cause electical damage.

Either modify to use an outrunner type motor or look for an inrunner with a 28mm diameter and has a KV of no higher than 2800kv, usually these have a larger spindle so you also need to source a 12 tooth 32dp pinion gear as well.

Nor forgetting the extra bracing you need to do to the wing. They are alot of fun though with twice the power lo.

[afpe45]

@gavj8,
I did the same to both the PZ-Mustang and the PZ-Spit. I havent flown either of them yet, I have been rebuilding the front half of two other stangs,
with builders foam /carbon rods and thin ply (almoast like vaneer) to cover, the shape is almost the same, first I glued some carbon rods to the inside of the fuz just a bit farther back from canopy to where the firewall USED to be,
then put a ply firewall on the front,then I laid the fuz on a plastic bag on the kitchen table(I live alone),then spray'd the builders foam from just in front of the cocpit(which is where I cut the damaged front end off from),it didn't take much foam and I left it to expand and cure after spraying it with hot water to help it expand faster before it cured, I have done both and am in the process of shaping the foam before gluing on the shaped ply and cutting out the unwanted foam from inside the foam front end for the battery bay and cooling ducts to get any exess heat and weight away, the cut down gearbox will go on the ply firewall ok with the smaller firewall for motor mount and a new cowl,
I have got a shot of the cut down gearbox and one of the complete mount that I got off another site,it is on a spit but its the same as the stang. the cut down gearbox is screwed to the ply firewall the screw thread you can see are to be cut off,
I forgot which site or I would have given you the link to it instead.
the stock prop is too thin and flexable(ok for learner with stock setup as they bend before breaking) prop APC 9x7.5 (34.02amp draw,47.73ounces of thrust)10x5 (29.33amps ,56.12ounces of thrust)or 10x7(34.57amps 57.02ounces of thrust) or you can go to a 12x6 if you want 73.30 ounces of thrust,the choice is yours.

outrunners are les hassle to fit,

AND OF COURCE DONT FORGET TO PUT CARBON TUBES IN THE WING OR THEY WILL FOLD. as pointed out by radweld


afpe45.

[Radweld]

Afpe45, which outrunner did you use in yours?

[gavj8]

@afpe45
Sounds like you have quite a selection of war birds! I like the sound of the ply firewall and the outrunner. I think i will give it a go when my new tx and rx arrive. So if ive got this right, the cut down gearbox is fixed to the ply firewall and acts as a mount for the outrunner (thus giving the correct down and right angle on the motor)?
Just out of curiosity, but where do you get the ply and carbon rods? Is there a good source of model materials in the uk that you would recommend?
Just wish the weather would sort itself out... been really windy up here for over a week and now its pouring down too! :(
GJ

[gavj8]

@radweld

I believe the typhoon mod has been done quite succesfully before and only using a 20A esc. See this link also:-

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14741&page=3

Think i will go with the outrunner though and lose a bit of extra weight off the front end.

Do you have the P51?
GJ

[Radweld]

This subject was discussed over on RCgroups a while back and the general feeling was with the stock prop, the amp draw would be too high. I admit I have not tried it but i know the typhoon has a larger reduction ratio in it's gearbox. For the price of a cheap Inrunner and ESC such as this. http://brchobbies.com/?page=shop&action=additem&item=772

The only problem fitting this is that you need a 12 tooth 32dp pinion for the 3mm shaft and the gearbox needs enlarging slightly with a dremmel.

[afpe45]

@radweld.
scorpion S-3014-16.(the one in the picture) from here.

http://www.bmkdesigns.net/Scorpion-c...FQbllAodnAHhCA

afpe45

[afpe45]

@gavj8,
OOPS!!,
I almoast missed your post....You have almost got it right, the cut down gearbox fits in its original place on the plastic firewall then the new ply firewall
is held in place with the original bolts bolted going through the ply and cut down firewall then the motor and mount fits to that,

I just go to my local hobby store for the bits I need, (b&q for the foam:D)

I don't know how far you are away from lancaster but there used to be a good model shop there,I haven't been up there for years.

afpe45.

[afpe45]

@gavj8,

I forgot a bit of info, common sence really , when fitting the motormount on to the ply firewall make sure the centre of the mount is centred on where the spindle would have been, I used blind nuts,for the bolts to hold the X shaped motor mount on, SUNK INTO THE PLY TO GIVE A FLAT SURFACE not just placed in place and pushed into the ply with the teeth OR IT WON'T SIT FLAT,as a couple of nuts come into contact with the cut down gearbox, (you will know what I mean when you do it),all you need to do is cut a piece of one of the layers of ply out where the nuts are going to go,that is the thickness of the plate the nuts are fixed to.I used a router bit on my dremmel but you can use a craft knife with care.
(I used 4.5mm ply from the model shop)

One slight diference between mine and yours, I also glued a ply firewall onto the original plastic one,before I reinforced the space behined the firewall with builders foam(I use that stuff a lot), as you have already foamed yours you might considder that MOD as well, BUT YOU WILL HAVE TO FIND NEW BOLTS FOR THE FIREWALL,AS THE ORIGINAL ONES ARN'T LONG ENOUGH TO GO THROUGH TWO PLY FIREWALLS AND THE GEARBOX INTO THE ORIGINAL PLASTIC FIREWALL.
hope I haven't cofused you,

a website for modelers : http://www.sussex-model-centre.co.uk/default.asp
afpe45.

[gavj8]

Thanks for that afpe45, some very good tips there. I have decided to go for the outrunner and the mount you have used sounds the most logical and easiest that would maintain the down and right angle. Been a bit tied up this last week or so with a new baby (the breathing and crying kind!!) but hope to get back in the workshop very soon. Treated myself to a new model today and ordered the phase 3 EF16 just to fill the time in while frankie is undergoing extensive surgery (and between changing nappies!!).

Have you managed to fly with the scorpion motor yet?

Also, what diameter carbon rods would you recommend for the wings? Would you run one continuous rod through both wings or use two separate?
Thanks

[afpe45]

gavj8,
I havent had time to fly anything latly,
the carbon spar in the wings are5.50mm diameter going from wing tip to wingtip, joined together in the middle with a short piece of ally tube (ferrule)around 4 inches long(Ithink 8mm diameter) bent to the same dihedral as the wing.
the carbon rods just slide in with a nice tight fit,if you get the carbon tubes(or rods) and the ally tube at the same time ,you can check the fit before buying ,to make sure you get ones that are a nice fit,
To fit ,just split the wing full length at the leading edge where they are taped together, cut a channel through the servo box in the centre of the wing ,deep enough to be able to seat the ferrule in(dont glue the carbon tubes in the ally ferrule till you get a nice seat allong the wing,) I also put annother carbon rod with ally ferrule near the traling edge as well,and put two servos(HS-81MG,but HS-65MG will do) in the wing to replace the one in the centre of the wing,(something to think about while you have the wing split),NEEDLES TO SAY I AM USING MY OWN TX AND RX,and am assuming you are doing the same.
I used gorrila glue (sparingly),to glue everything in place, I put the servos In polethene before seating them in the foam(gorrila glue) in the wing ,so I got a nice bay for the servos,then used screws to hold them in(after taking the polythene off). just cut two square flaps in the wing for easy acces(on three sides to leave a hinge), when everything is done just tape the wing up again after cutting ane eccess foam from seating the tubes (and servos if fitted),
a tip before taping up,ballance the wing in case you have more foam on one side of the wing than the other,
sorry I dont have pictures but there is a thread on rc universe about the PZ Mustang, and someone did something simmilar using an ally arrow shaft as a spar.
and shows the wing split(though he didn't seat the spar the way I did).

afpe45

[gavj8]

Well after spending hours trawling the web for a suitable outrunner, I stumbled across a bargain on ebay that I just couldn’t let slip by. I found this thread on another forum http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=388075 for the AON 2815 3000kv inrunner that is a direct replacement for the parkzone stock motor in the P51. Lo and behold there was one on ebay, exact model and stole it for £13. I fitted the motor at the weekend, no problems really, just needed to source some M3 machined screws to mount to the gearbox (http://www.rs-components.co.uk/), used a spare Rx from the Trojan (funding hasn’t stretched to a DX6i yet!) and a 60a ESC (bought for my EDF but laying round spare). I fitted a prop adaptor to the gearbox spindle and changed the standard prop to a Master Airscrew 11x7. I still have to do the carbon insert in the wings which following a bench test of the new motor will definitely be a requirement!! The thrust on this set up is unbelievable. Fully laden with a 2400mah Lipo, im anticipating unlimited vertical performance! Cant wait to try it once the weather improves. Flight report to follow...............

gavj8

[Radweld]

Man 3000kv is gonna rip that gearbox to shreds. Even with a 2200kv my Spits got unlimited vertical and eats gearboxes for breakfast. I would seriously consider a smaller diameter prop and pitch.

Been thinking of ditching the inrunner and going for an outrunner such as this http://www.brchobbies.co.uk/?page=shop&action=additem&item=334

Should be simple to do using the original gearbox as a mount to set the thrust angle.

[denali]

You might need to down size you prop.A 3000kv motor with that big prop will draw alot of amps.When I had a 3000kv in my fw190 I found it flew well with a 10x4.7 prop.

[afpe45]

here is the prop data for the scorpion from micronradiocontrol:
http://www.micronradiocontrol.co.uk/scorpion_data/3014-16.html

10x7E gives 57 oz of thrust,

afpe45

[gavj8]

Finally got out to test the set up last week and could not believe the performance. It was a relatively calm day and after a good throw at 3/4 throttle the P51 climbed like a rocket! It seemed to fly well but needed a good amount of down trim to maintain level flight. Really enjoyed bringing her in low then climbing vertical till it was a mere dot in the sky then letting it stall and diving at full throttle! This thing can shift! Good job i done the carbon fibre spar mod in the wing (thanks guys) or the wings would have snapped clean off. Anyway, after around 6 - 7 minutes of flight i made the awful mistake of flying in front of the sun momentarily blinding me and yes you can guess..... catastrophe!! Front end snapped clean off, fuse broken (why cant the mustang have a replaceable skeleton like the spit or FW190??). Anyway a lot of 1/16th ply, hot glue and gorrila glue later (not to mention crash repair tape!) and she is ready to go again. I have taken your advice and gone for an APC 10 x 7 prop so will see how she goes :D During the spell of bad weather I also purchased a damaged spit and a focke (need to keep away from ebay!) Focke is stock but have converted spit to brushless. I took your advice and ditched the gearbox and went for an outrunner (1050kv, 280w), took her out at the weekend and she flys really well. Very stable at low speed and with lots of power in reserve. Only problem now is deciding which plane to fly!!

Forgot to mention - Thanks for the cut down gearbox tip afpe45! Works a treat.

[ralphp]

sounds more like a cardboard box with all that tape?:D
But by the sound of it....must be a real screemer!:cool:

got any pics?

[gavj8]

Its not going to win any beauty contests!!! But unbelievably still flys great. Will take some pics and post soon. I think SL should run a competition for the most bashed up flyable plane.... i think i would win!!!

[afpe45]

gavj8,

shame about the crash, you can experiment with shims at the leading edge of the wing, or/and shims on the downthrust to get level flight at full throttle as these birds are built for parkflying and the more thrust you give it the more it goes up, I did a loop just by giving it(mustang and spit) full throttle with no input to the elevators at all. even full size planes go up with more thrust,
I flew in a twin engined cesner and we had to set the cofg for level flight by turning a wheel which slides a weight in the plane forwards or backwards(bit of useless info)

afpe45

[gavj8]

Ok no laughing........ heres how frankie currently looks hanging on my garage wall. All the free advertising for Squadron Leader surely must be worth something!!

178

179

[dyls1]

Goord that is some mess, I thought my plane was bad.
Seeing that makes me think anything can fly.
Newbi dyls1

[gavj8]

What the picture doesnt show is the 1/16th plywood inside and outside to strengthen the 'broken in seven places' fuselage! The front end around the old battery bay (which now houses my esc) has been filled with foam so tends to remain in one lump. Canopy has been re-glued on after pilot ejected and as you can see, the wing has taken quite a battering. Probably been repaired on 5-6 occasions using gorrila glue and magic tape (prior to my SL repair tape days!) 75% of damage was pre brushless and i find having the extra power certainly gets you out of tricky situations. One day frankie will get a new wing and fuse but for now, i think i will see just how much damage one plane can sustain before their flying days are numbered! In fact after each crash, it feels quite an achievement getting it back in the air and flying well!

[afpe45]

gavj8.
you need to change the prop for an apc 10x7e, the original flexes too much
with the extra power.
I am going to try a folder on my mustang and spit(they both have the scorpion motor) to save props on bad landings plus I slope them--when I get to fly that is.
your damage looks the same as my mustang when I crashed mine when the wing folded (in the same place as yours), but after the repair with ply and builders foam,which still needs finishing and painting it will look a bit better than yours, I am not criticising your repair but using ply and foam you don't need the tape after the repair,only to hold things in place while things cure.
my mustang is ply and builders expanding foam from the cocpit to the firewall
with a couple of carbon rods for suport where the plastic frame used to be,then hollowed out to reduce weight and allow airflow to the esc and battery compartment(accesed from the top),
I need to borrow a camera to show before I finnish it.

afpe45.

[gavj8]

gavj8.
you need to change the prop for an apc 10x7e, the original flexes too much
with the extra power.
I am going to try a folder on my mustang and spit(they both have the scorpion motor) to save props on bad landings plus I slope them--when I get to fly that is.
your damage looks the same as my mustang when I crashed mine when the wing folded (in the same place as yours), but after the repair with ply and builders foam,which still needs finishing and painting it will look a bit better than yours, I am not criticising your repair but using ply and foam you don't need the tape after the repair,only to hold things in place while things cure.
my mustang is ply and builders expanding foam from the cocpit to the firewall
with a couple of carbon rods for suport where the plastic frame used to be,then hollowed out to reduce weight and allow airflow to the esc and battery compartment(accesed from the top),
I need to borrow a camera to show before I finnish it.

afpe45.

Yeah need to change the standard prop. Did have the 11 x 7 on and have a APC 10 x 7 to fit but as the last crash destroyed my prop adaptor i just opted for the easy fit with the standard prop. It does flex a lot under full power and loses a lot of thrust in the process. Will get it changed before its next outing.
As for the repair job, i know it looks rough but it was merely a quick fix to get back in the air. The magic tape on the wings was just to hold things in place while the glue set and to prevent it foaming out of control. Once I have a dozen or so 'uneventful' flights in i will order spare parts and get it looking decent again. Not all my parkzone models look this bad.... yet!!

gavj8

[ralphp]

"Hang your head in shame!" well you made my day! LOL looks like something deliverd by the post office!

"Young man have a word with your groundcrew and have them splash some paint about!" almost as bad as not wearing a tie or god forbid a crevat!